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Post by Nathan Branigan on Apr 13, 2008 6:17:13 GMT 1
What would your ideal government be? Democracy, Dictatorship, Monarchy, Oligarchy, Constitutional Monarchy, Republic, Communism, Socialism, etc.?
Also, what are the flaws of these government types?
DISCUSS!
::EDIT::
My ideal Government would be a Representative Democracy. However, I've lived in one my whole life so my viewpoint on that matter is narrow.
The flaw about this system is that it denies the fact that a large portion of the people are ignorant or just plain stupid. And some that are intelligent can also be very selfish. It also makes for a slow moving system of government that can at times be ineffective.
My argument against communism is that is can be easily corrupted and denies the fact that people almost need the chance to get ahead of others. However, on paper it is more or less the best type of government there is.
Dictatorships can be a very efficient and effective form of government. Leaving the power in a single person can allow for uniform laws that can work like a well oiled machine. however, this can be rare as the promise of power can easily corrupt most. The same can go for Oligarchies and Monarchies.
I don't really know much about socialism other than it gives property to the government instead of the people, which is what communism does. This can allow for a corrupt government, but if done correctly than it will thrive,
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Post by Alkaiser on Apr 13, 2008 20:43:31 GMT 1
here's just a really weird question from me, but ummm...
why?
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Post by Aden Allett on Apr 13, 2008 20:52:52 GMT 1
here's just a really weird question from me, but ummm... why? Is this post even necessary? It's just a discussion thread. Honestly, I'm fine with Democracy. Freedom and what-not.
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Post by Nathan Branigan on Apr 13, 2008 20:53:19 GMT 1
Mainly because I am bored and need something to do. Something to talk about. I would go outside and hang out with friends, but my body is acting weird right now and I can't.
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Post by Director Troutman on Apr 13, 2008 22:56:39 GMT 1
but my body is acting weird right now and I can't. Must.....Resist urge....To crack joke..... -brain breaks- On the topic, of course, I'm renowned for having a real displeasure for government. As a Brit, and as the other Brits here will know, our system is so terribly flawed and skewed that any hopes for well handled government matters are just a pipe dream. Of course, with the USA on course to a new recession, I'm sure plenty can understand my view. Democracy is inherently flawed because power can only be gained through lies, and once that power is gained those lies come to light, bringing about dissent and distrust before the whole cycle begins again.
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Felix
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Post by Felix on Apr 14, 2008 0:26:06 GMT 1
I have to say there, fearless leader, that I like your view on Democracy.
Personally though, I'm rooting for an Anarchist-apocalyptic society. Something where those who want can just slip away and live in what small amount of peace one can obtain.
Which brings me to a quote I heard, possibly from one of the members here. Something like;
Happiness can only last until another man makes you unhappy, whether or not whatever he did, makes him happy.
I botched it, I'm sure, but it's something like that.
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Post by Director Troutman on Apr 14, 2008 1:29:56 GMT 1
Governmental flaws, in my opinion...
Democracy: Already stated above, but for brevity....Democracy is inherently flawed because power can only be gained through lies, and once that power is gained those lies come to light, bringing about dissent and distrust before the whole cycle begins again.
Dictatorship: One mans will to govern the entire faculty of his people. Corruption through power is so prevalent and common that a god complex arises. Dissent is often treated with no mercy and the freedom of the people is restricted in the presence of one mans ego. Think Kim Jong Il, if you will.
Monarchy: This would also apply to dictatorships, I suppose, but would be more prevalent to a monarchy. Kings and queens almost always lack the understanding of their subjects as they live in luxury and as such, do not possess the ability to see or realise the plight of the lower classes. Favoured treatment to the wealthy prevails and everyone else must live with the distorted 'ideals' of whatever council the monarch puts together, often comprised of wealthy people once again.
Communism: On paper, the logic is so effective, but put it into practice and once again, corruption and the inherent greed of man will eat away at it. There is no way communism can ever be successful with the way in which we live.
I've no place to comment any further than that, or on any of the others, because it's outwith my personal knowledge to do so.
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Jack Lifeson
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Well, that's just uh, like, your opinion, man.
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Post by Jack Lifeson on Apr 14, 2008 20:38:02 GMT 1
City States in Roman and Greek times were the most effective form of government- because EVERYONE DID in fact get a say. TRUE democracy. In Canada we elect a representative for our riding, based on the majority's ideals, they then get into office, throw our ideals out the window, and follow whatever the prime minister says or their fired. Not exactly representing our ideals now are they?
Paper democracy. Bismark made it, The West loves it.
Also, Felix, you'd be one of the first to die come Anarchy.
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Post by Leon Loire on Apr 15, 2008 0:43:22 GMT 1
"If Humans were Angels, there would be no need for government." - President John Adams.
I love that quote, as it seems to echo the reminder of how important government is, but most importantly, what kind of government is implemented. Just to point out, I don't think there is a single form of government that is perfect or ultimately superior to others. Every culture, society, and civilization has to choose their own form of government. In the West, we prefer a government that guarantees something past Classical Liberalism; in the East, their governments can range from Chinese communism to Russian democracy to Dictatorship to Fascism to Theocracy. Every region has its own views of a preferred government; it's why my own current government is having such a terribly difficult time forcing Democracy on Post-Hussein Iraq.
Still, I have to say that in my own desire for a government, I'd want an American Liberal-aligned, centralized (or Federalized) Representative Democracy/Republic. In my opinion, this sort of design has the best means to accomplish personal and social liberty without striking upon Anarchy or Communism, embraces - albeit few - ideas of Socialism, and is capable of effectively guarding its citizens from most harm from economic downturn through regulation of big businesses and "safety net" measures. In all essence, I'm pretty much big on getting FDR back into office.
But I bet you all knew that by now.
But of course, we all know that each governmental style has a weakness, even Direct Democracy, as Lifeson mentioned in regards to Ancient Greece. Think about it: even though every citizen had a say in public policy, a majority still chose to have the famous philosopher Socrates executed because he was an apparent "taint" on the minds of young Greeks. In Democracy, the weakness is not a lack of freedoms or traditions, but rather, the weakness of humanity itself.
Still, I've got a book in my possession now written by Iain M. Banks, a popular British SF writer that has some interesting political views, and the book - titled "Matter" - has to do with an anarchist-like world that is governed by superintelligent A.I. know as "The Culture," that keep order through enforcement when it's necessary, but for the most part, humans are able to do whatever they want in an entirely abundant universe. I'll let you guys know how that read goes, since it's governmental structure is bound to be interesting.
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Jack Lifeson
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Well, that's just uh, like, your opinion, man.
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Post by Jack Lifeson on Apr 15, 2008 21:31:57 GMT 1
Muad'dib had it right.
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Felix
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Post by Felix on Apr 17, 2008 4:55:19 GMT 1
First to die, nah. Find a nice small hole in the wall that was previously abandoned, I'd say I'd do just fine for myself come anarchy.
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Jack Lifeson
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Well, that's just uh, like, your opinion, man.
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Post by Jack Lifeson on Apr 17, 2008 16:15:37 GMT 1
First to die, nah. Find a nice small hole in the wall that was previously abandoned, I'd say I'd do just fine for myself come anarchy. Thanks for trumping your concept of Anarchism being the top form of government. Anything that causes you to abandon all technology and family and live in a hole can't honestly be your ideal government- if it is, you're sad and take what liberties you DO have far too much for granted.
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Dante Williams
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Post by Dante Williams on Apr 24, 2008 22:26:29 GMT 1
To be honest, my favorite form of government is America's own Republic Democracy. It's not perfect, but then again, there isn't any government without it's flaws.
And if Anarchy DID come around, I'd blame Felix and kill him myself.
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Felix
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You think you have demons? My past is riddled with more than just your average demons.
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Post by Felix on Apr 24, 2008 23:14:50 GMT 1
But in this day and age, a good portion of..the DAMN WORLD takes what they have for granted. Anarchism would set people straight. I'm thinking about the good of all people here. lol
And Dante, You'd have to find me first, I'm pretty good at hiding.
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Post by Zack Richardson on Apr 25, 2008 0:05:36 GMT 1
But in this day and age, a good portion of..the DAMN WORLD takes what they have for granted. Anarchism would set people straight. I'm thinking about the good of all people here. lol And Dante, You'd have to find me first, I'm pretty good at hiding. OK you have a point that it might set some people straight, but after anarchy, how do you intend on bringing order back? And after people have experienced such freedom do you really think they will give up without a fight?
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Felix
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You think you have demons? My past is riddled with more than just your average demons.
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Post by Felix on Apr 25, 2008 1:10:06 GMT 1
Someones going to want to control everything. Order would re-establish itself in a time frame that would take a couple of years at least, if not one hell of a long time. And it wouldn't necessarily be widespread. It would work city by city, effectively demolishing any type of centralized government that likes to 'do for the people' while doing for themselves, as well.
And as for the second point, makes you wonder what freedom really is.
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August Velway
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Post by August Velway on Apr 25, 2008 1:19:23 GMT 1
So you're saying that, since people take everything they have for granted, we ought to have anarchy just to prove a point and "set everyone straight?"
Not only is that "lesson" going to be forgotten with just a few generations, but whatever lessons will be learned will just be put off as barbaric and turned away, and nothing will be gained. Besides, you're assuming that since people in developed countries "take things for granted," then all human beings take things for granted. What about people living in Somalia, or in other parts of Africa, or in war-torn Middle Eastern regions, or Southwestern Asia? They have to deal with Anarchy everyday, and I hardly think they see it as a "lesson."
And Freedom's the ability for someone to make a choice on their own. Even if Freedom in America is limited by laws and moral obligations, it's certainly more free than most other countries, so that's why we're free. I'd rather have some limitations for the sake of security than have complete freedom and have no security from the unethical choices of others.
Anarchism sucks. I think you're in the wrong there completely, Felix.
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Post by Shamino Warhen Ph.D on Apr 25, 2008 5:53:27 GMT 1
Of course he is. He was pwned and will now go 'I was just playing devil's advocate lolz'
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Felix
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Post by Felix on Apr 25, 2008 7:53:28 GMT 1
Wrong or right, it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Though, Shamino, most people would try and turn around and say that, I won't. I'm completely serious about it.
I think that the majority of people need a wake up call so disastrous that it sets them straight, though with the amount of desensitization in USA I don't even think Anarchism would be enough.
Now as far as third and second world countries go, this would be nothing new to them. Most of them live in cultures where they utilize everything given to them. So an Anarchist state would have no real sense of being, if that makes any sense to it. I was remarking about the American people. Should of put that up there first, huh?
But that's not what this thread is about, it's about what your ideal society would be. That would be my ideal society, watching the people turn in and against one another purely for survival. I would love to watch this happen, seeing as how in a few hundred years, it may end up becoming so. History repeats itself, only a matter of time before the people revolt.
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Post by Shamino Warhen Ph.D on Apr 25, 2008 12:43:54 GMT 1
Wrong or right, it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. Though, Shamino, most people would try and turn around and say that, I won't. I'm completely serious about it. I think that the majority of people need a wake up call so disastrous that it sets them straight, though with the amount of desensitization in USA I don't even think Anarchism would be enough. Now as far as third and second world countries go, this would be nothing new to them. Most of them live in cultures where they utilize everything given to them. So an Anarchist state would have no real sense of being, if that makes any sense to it. I was remarking about the American people. Should of put that up there first, huh? But that's not what this thread is about, it's about what your ideal society would be. That would be my ideal society, watching the people turn in and against one another purely for survival. I would love to watch this happen, seeing as how in a few hundred years, it may end up becoming so. History repeats itself, only a matter of time before the people revolt. I would feel safer and more at ease if you were incarcerated.
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