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Post by Nathan Branigan on Jun 1, 2008 8:13:42 GMT 1
Considering the current discussions going on I've become aware of, I've decided this would be a good time to get this out in the open. This board has been around for several years and it still has a decent amount of problems. Knowing me I won't write enough to get through all of it, but I'll do as much as I can at three in the morning. This concerns a few things from how the staff deals with "problems" to how people are treated differently based on their status on the board.
First off is the current thread of Shamino's that was locked down due to spam. Now I dislike spam just as much as anyone else on this board, when it's of no purpose. However, that thread existed for nearly a year when Leon got approval from Liam to lock it. I don't know about you, but judging from the posts and views a lot of people enjoyed that thread. I also actually took the time to try out of some those songs in it, so the argument that it had no purpose really isn't true. I'm not Shamino's biggest fan, but his thread shouldn't have been locked. Stating this again, it took a year before it was locked. Why wait that long to lock that thread if it was spam? If you're going to wait that long to lock a thread, what's the point? A lot of people posted in it, and it's not like it was an "OMGHI2Ulololololol" thread so it really isn't the same kind of spam. Threads like that don't really count as spam in my book and shouldn't be locked like it was.
Next is the action taken in regards to the rules on the board. For a long time, the same thing has happened in regards to Rule # 3 "God Modding". Basically how this works is that when a new player repeatedly breaks this rule they get suspended from the board of from tournaments, or just publicly insulted in some way. That's all good and fun, but what about the more experienced RPers that do the same thing? My chief example would be Odin. I swear everytime that man joins a tournament or a fight thread, there is usually some comment on his controlling of the character or his refusal to take a hit or how he somehow breaks the laws of physics. If he does this so much, where is his punishment? If I recall, he would win a tournament match regardless of breaking this rule and become the winner once again. Where is his punishment? I don't recall him ever getting one. Another is Shamino's bashing of other people on this board. I remember the second Ari insulted a newcomer, he was warned and had a swarm of people come on the attack. When does that ever happen with Shamino? The same thing happened with King when he was around with both the problems of Odin and Shamino. Read his weaknesses for Stern and some of the threads he made for the story lines if you need proof. Let's not forget Raphael's punishment for breaking a rule in a tourney either. He was suspended from future tourneys. So basically if you make rules, enforce them for real. Don't give bias punishments based on the person's length of time here. Breaking the rules is breaking the rules.
I would complain about the fact that VIPs can automatically create over two characters as well, but they can get approval to allow that. Not that they always get it. Mods can even approve their own character's new bios. It's how Stern's bio was approved even to spite the obvious Modding in it. Although it probably would have been approved anyway. He was a Moderator after all.
Make a retort, agree with me, ignore me, do whatever. I've said what I needed to say.
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Post by Alkaiser on Jun 1, 2008 14:59:18 GMT 1
I think you make some valid points. As your friend, I'm gonna tell you that you went about it all wrong though. It seriously sounds like you're calling out Liam, Odin and all of the other people you mentioned in this little rant, and often when ranting you should be prepared to get your ass ripped open for even the tiniest little slip ups with ambiguous text, when here I think you might have made a few big ones.
That being said, the death of a beloved thread sucks, but the line between constant OOC interaction and spam is paperthin. The decision as to what is spam and what is not is left solely in the hands of the administrators. It's in their best interest to make a better board for all of us, and if they decide that something doesn't belong then they can take action to make it so.
The God-Modding thing is a big problem, but enforcing the rule is tricky. It's hard to know what a writer was thinking when they made their moves, so this would be punishment by interpretation. For example, on my last lost fight, I was weakly accused of Modding as the reason I lost, but I still argue that what I did was planned and alluded to in my previous posts. How could you know that I wasn't just BSing to save my ass just now? You've gotta look at it from the point of view of the enforcers for this rule.
The third argument seems like the weakest. This is something that isn't really hurting anybody, but instead improving the board. Membership on these things is never stellar, so the gap needs to be filled. Granted, that means that in theory one player can rule both schools, but...wait, I think I see your point on this one. Okay, fine. I'll let this one go.
Point is, this seems less and less like a public service announcement the more I think about it, and more like a scorning of the VIPs and Mods. I just think it might be better to phrase your gripes in a more neutral tone. Thats all I have to say about that.
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Post by Nathan Branigan on Jun 1, 2008 17:39:50 GMT 1
I think you make some valid points. As your friend, I'm gonna tell you that you went about it all wrong though. It seriously sounds like you're calling out Liam, Odin and all of the other people you mentioned in this little rant, and often when ranting you should be prepared to get your ass ripped open for even the tiniest little slip ups with ambiguous text, when here I think you might have made a few big ones. That being said, the death of a beloved thread sucks, but the line between constant OOC interaction and spam is paperthin. The decision as to what is spam and what is not is left solely in the hands of the administrators. It's in their best interest to make a better board for all of us, and if they decide that something doesn't belong then they can take action to make it so. The God-Modding thing is a big problem, but enforcing the rule is tricky. It's hard to know what a writer was thinking when they made their moves, so this would be punishment by interpretation. For example, on my last lost fight, I was weakly accused of Modding as the reason I lost, but I still argue that what I did was planned and alluded to in my previous posts. How could you know that I wasn't just BSing to save my ass just now? You've gotta look at it from the point of view of the enforcers for this rule. The third argument seems like the weakest. This is something that isn't really hurting anybody, but instead improving the board. Membership on these things is never stellar, so the gap needs to be filled. Granted, that means that in theory one player can rule both schools, but...wait, I think I see your point on this one. Okay, fine. I'll let this one go. Point is, this seems less and less like a public service announcement the more I think about it, and more like a scorning of the VIPs and Mods. I just think it might be better to phrase your gripes in a more neutral tone. Thats all I have to say about that. You'll have to ignore to non-objective way I wrote it down. 3 AM in the morning and I was having a hard time wording it. It came out all wrong and it made me look like an ass. The third one really isn't an argument, just stating that some people need to make sure Mods don't abuse their ability to lock their own bios. That's not as much of a problem seeing how it's only happened once. The flaws of the other two, I can understand, but I still think they need to be revised somehow. The God Modding should be given warnings for the first one or two times, but after that they should be punished in some way, not necessarily by suspension. It was more of pointing out that newer members get worse punishments for the same crimes. Thanks though. Was thinking the normal ripping to shreds was gonna happen. |
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Post by Director Troutman on Jun 1, 2008 17:46:47 GMT 1
Because I'm slightly hung-over and doing my best to not get annoyed at this, I'm going to address what -I- see as the main points here. Stop me if you're unsure.
The music thread[/u]
This got locked because it was just getting silly. Yes, I personally see it as spam and as you'll know, debates are being waged about exactly what does and does not constitute as spam on the board, so I'm not running on my OWN opinion here. I was personally approached about this thread by several staff members before I eventually authorised the lock, so frankly, it's actually a number of the -STAFF- who are seeing it as spam as well as myself. Why did we wait so long? A good question. The fact was, as you said, it wasn't causing any problems. I accept that wholeheartedly, but a thirty page thread of one-liners was starting to get ridiculous. Now, as it stands, not ONE person has been told they cannot make a new thread for it, and if someone were to do so, then great, go for it. It's not about to get locked (though as people started doing, I'd rather see folk put up more than one song at a time, and conversely avoid posting their entire playlists at the same time). In the same light as that, however, why not have a 'What are you watching?' thread, with links of youtube videos and all that? Oh, wait, we call -that- spam.
You bear in mind, that I have to justify my actions based on a popular opinion and somehow make it appeasable to everyone. If you're so interested in telling people what you're listening to or finding out what someone's listening to (and this isn't directed directly at Nathan, I might add, this is a universal address), then that's why we have the glory of MSN (and the plug-in that allows you to display your current song.
Moving on.
God-Moding and Rule-Breaking
A multi part answer here, lots of things to address. Let's start with God-Moding, though Alkaiser covered it quite well, I'll revisit. A post that 'reads' like someone is acting in a controlling manner does not immediately apply guilt to god-moding. The subtle nuances of writing personality and RPer personality vary widely, and yes, I see exactly where you're coming from, but what would you have people do? In a tournament, you're TRYING to get the edge, so you push what you can without breaking the rules. I know for sure as hell that -I- do that, and yeah, I've been called out by an opponent who wonders why I'm doing something and thinks I might be controlling them. Hindsight, however brief, is your friend here. Re-reading that post might point out that I -did- perhaps over-assume something, or help ME point out that I wrote something on a theoretical basis, only applicable if something else occurred in said post. However, don't sit there and try and call me out for playing favourites. I pull people up all the same for modding if I see it/get told of it. I just don't do it in front of people. You're not children, and you're certainly less likely to listen to me if I PUBLICLY berate you for pushing your luck. I speak to people through PM's and MSN.
Rule breaking, well, with the exception of Raphs stunt, who ELSE has outright broken a tournament rule? You're applying one case to your argument here, and it doesn't help your case. To my memory, the only other person who has done such a thing was one of Kvists secondarys, and I tore strips through him for that stunt. People don't get away with breaking rules, so don't try calling that one, it's not the case and people know it. People don't get different treatment for their actions. modding is subjective so it's near-impossible to prove it unless the writer is outright going out of his way to do so. Rule-breaking is such a rarity that I've seen two occurrences in, what? Twenty tournaments? Maybe more?
Bringing Stern/King into the picture is also moot. The guy isn't even here anymore. What difference does it really make to what you're currently referring to?
Lastly, the Shamino debate. Fact is, Ari got a -verbal- warning for a rather abrupt and outright insult. Did he get any other punishment besides a reprimand? No. I've warned plenty of people for such things, and I do, in fact, bring it up with Shamino when I need to.
I'm leaving the rest of this for now. It's actually starting to get me angry to mull over it.
Character creation
As is common knowledge through the board, the reason VIPs tend to have an easier time making an extra character is quite simple. They've proven their intent to stay on the board and not to do a week then bugger off. As such, that's a privilege they get, and yes, you can call that favouritism if you like, but in that regard, I have no position to take any argument. The clues in the name. VIP.
However, anyone can, within reason, make requests for second characters. I've often approved non-VIPs based on other merits for having them and is the main reason I request people to PM me with regard to such things. The only difference between a normal member and a VIP is their longevity on the board, and consequently, their potential to remain as members and successfully manage two accounts.
Now, as for mods approving their own bio sheets. I've gone through the entire approved bio section and checked this to be certain, so let me point something out. I see six bios to which that has happened. Of those six, three of them were just updates of original bios that had already been re-approved during the Varron-Hircine switch. The other three, to which secondaries were approved by their moderative counterparts, all three had spoken with me in advance and asked me to read the bio first. I'm not so stupid as to let folk just post and approve their own bios on here. I check up on these things. As for Stern, who is actually excluded from that count, once again I point out that he is no longer a member here and as such is not worth bringing into this debate.
Now, my question.
If you have had these grievances for a while, why did you not choose to approach me and instead post this thread? I've always made it clear that if someone here has a problem, they come to me.
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Post by Kei on Jun 1, 2008 18:18:58 GMT 1
Because it seemed like something that really bothered him, I was the one who told him to bring it up in the OOC. I was the only one on last night, and after talking with him about these issues he found his resolve. It was a fault on my part for not first advising him to PM this to you, and I'll accept that, however maybe this was (or is?) the better alternative. If something like this is bothering him, then of course it would be on the minds of others as well. Having asked questions publicly serves to offer answers in a different light. And besides, would you have let this bother you if it was PMed to you? No, and regardless Nathan wasn't specifically pointing you out, Liam. He put forth his observations of the staff and what he has been watching as a long time member of the board.
I know I'm not staff, but I'm still a VIP (the way you guys addressed this title above kind of disappoints me). As helper of the forum I spoke to Nathan (first time ever outside of the board) because he thought I would be of help. On those grounds I chose to say something, because anything would be better than nothing. And in my opinion anything is always better than nothing. But, yeah, since Nathan is probably one of the few left from XIN1 who would think I have some credibility, something like this won't happen again. And if it does, then I'll just redirect to you or Tyler.
~Manuel
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Post by Director Troutman on Jun 1, 2008 18:34:25 GMT 1
It was a fault on my part for not first advising him to PM this to you, and I'll accept that, however maybe this was (or is?) the better alternative. I'm not asking for anyone to shoulder 'blame' for anything, Manuel. I just had to wonder why, if these are clearly problems that people have had for a while, nobody seems to bother coming to me about them first. I'm not omniescent, so I -do- rely on people bringing up their problems with me so I at least have an opportunity to try and satiate them before it comes to things like this. It's not that it isn't a better alternative, it just makes me quite sad that people are so disillusioned with some things about the board that it comes to this. And besides, would you have let this bother you if it was PMed to you? I'm surprised you even broach this issue. I'd hope of all folk here you'd know I'll try my best to fix anything that needs fixed. I know I'm not staff, but I'm still a VIP (the way you guys addressed this title above kind of disappoints me). To clarify my intent here...I'm making the point that, yeah, VIP's are exactly as the name implies. They're the important members of the board, the cornerstones of the foundations, and as a result, they're privy to be trusted with a few extra priviliges and responsibilities that other members have to work towards gaining. I don't see where I demeaned that, but if I did, I apologise. But, yeah, since Nathan is probably one of the few left from XIN1 who would think I have some credibility, something like this won't happen again. And if it does, then I'll just redirect to you or Tyler. As I noted above, I would prefer it to be brought up with me or Tyler first, but in situations like this, where clearly theres a lack of communication, then so long as it's addressed, I don't care either way. Rather to address a problem the wrong way than to not address it at all. |
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Post by Kira Karyuudo, Hikari on Jun 1, 2008 18:51:21 GMT 1
To clarify my intent here...I'm making the point that, yeah, VIP's are exactly as the name implies. They're the important members of the board, the cornerstones of the foundations, and as a result, they're privy to be trusted with a few extra priviliges and responsibilities that other members have to work towards gaining. I don't see where I demeaned that, but if I did, I apologise. I think I see where that might have come across. The fact that putting the title VIP for some members and not for the regular ones is, indeed, putting them up a level higher, but it doesn't mean they're more valuable in terms of actual membership. When it comes down to it, every member of the board is the same (regardless of title or position): we're all members. It doesn't mean that just because someone has VIP status it means that they're more "wanted" or "needed". Every single member is...though I think what Manuel was meaning was that pointing out that distinction of VIPs being "higher up" meant they were more valuable--which, as Liam's said, isn't the idea he wanted to put forward at all. Close to what you'd meant, Manuel? --- Anyway, on the thread as a whole, I don't have much to say at all. What I might have said has been covered already, but I don't see it as a "bad thing" for this thread to have been put up here. Sometimes, if you're ever unsure, a public address can be a good thing...though it does depend on the subject matter, of course. (Obviously, more personal gripes or whatnot should be taken up with the person involved and a staff member like Liam, or whomever you're most comfortable speaking with; in this case it was Kei-Kei, and there's nothing wrong with that, either.) |
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Post by Pain Killer on Jun 1, 2008 19:42:57 GMT 1
Damnit, I missed the complain train.
Well, since this is seemingly dealt with, I'd just like to add that in the future, it's better that if you have a problem you go to a staff member in a reasonable amount of time. Nothing's worse than complaining about things that happened months ago, since first off; some people can't remember what the hell you're talking about, and secondly; you won't be stewing over it for so long. The sooner it's dealt with, the better.
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Post by Shuya Katsumoto on Jun 1, 2008 23:19:23 GMT 1
Just like Adam, I did miss the whole train and I don't really need to really get into anything since it's mostly been covered... but I do wonder, why did you not go to John with this? I mean, he's a moderator who would immediately bring this up with the staff or only the admins... Or did you discuss this with him?
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Post by Leon Loire on Jun 2, 2008 2:28:52 GMT 1
He did. He didn't agree with my answers, and he decided to bring it up with the rest of the board. Simple as that.
He knows how I feel on the issue, though, so I don't feel like reiterating what Liam has said thus far.
Edit: To note, I think it's pretty clear that I wouldn't stop my own brother from voicing his opinions the way he sees fit. Just because he's my brother doesn't mean I should restrain him. He is a member of the board, and he's got the right to speak his thoughts however he feels is best. Besides, I didn't think he was going to do anything ridiculous, and he hasn't; sure, he should have talked with Liam first, but I admit that making a thread about the issue was probably just as effective as getting answers from Liam. After all, I think everyone needed to see this discussion anyway.
But yeah, this wasn't much of a surprise to me. James tried to get some answers out of me before hand like Manuel, and I wasn't much help considering I usually stay out of the loop by choice. So he went ahead in making the thread.
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Post by Nathan Branigan on Jun 2, 2008 2:31:27 GMT 1
He did. He didn't agree with my answers, and he decided to bring it up with the rest of the board. Simple as that. He knows how I feel on the issue, though, so I don't feel like reiterating what Liam has said thus far. I wanted to hear more than one person's opinion and I didn't realize that I should have brought it up with Liam or Tyler first. I would have if I had known. Too late now though. |
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Post by Director Troutman on Jun 2, 2008 3:12:32 GMT 1
He did. He didn't agree with my answers, and he decided to bring it up with the rest of the board. Simple as that. He knows how I feel on the issue, though, so I don't feel like reiterating what Liam has said thus far. I wanted to hear more than one person's opinion and I didn't realize that I should have brought it up with Liam or Tyler first. I would have if I had known. Too late now though. As I said to you on MSN earlier today (it'd have been an offline message, if you aren't set to receive those), it's not a problem. Yes, I would -prefer- people to approach me first if they have grievances, but I don't object to someone wanting to make a public address for something if it's needed or required in some capacity or another. As I've made clear in the past, it's not about what -I- want or need, but you as members on the board. |
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Post by Kyukaku on Jun 2, 2008 19:50:37 GMT 1
To be fair, these are things Nathan has discussed with me before, so technically he DID come to me first. Still, I thought everthing had been solved at the time, but I guess I was wrong. Either way, I think something like this worked better, letting everyone read in on it. Things to remember are this:
We do reprimand, its just usually done privately. Otherwise its unnecessary embarassment.
VIPs are not more valuable, simply a name highlighted to let you know they can answer questions and whatnot if no staff is around.
And for the record, I've never approved any of my characters myself, with the exception of Kyu's most recent update.
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Post by Pain Killer on Jun 2, 2008 20:08:14 GMT 1
VIPs are not more valuable, simply a name highlighted to let you know they can answer questions and whatnot if no staff is around. Hence increasing their value around the board.  I don't judge my own bios, as far as I remember. I like to shift that responsibility off to someone else. |
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Post by Shamino Warhen Ph.D on Jun 3, 2008 5:27:55 GMT 1
P.S, I don't want fans.
Fact of the matter is:
-Odin is and will always 'push it to the limit'
-Leon is the good cop. Most of the time TOO good a cop. Reminds me of a mob underboss, or, in terms he'd understand- a Sith Apprentice.
-Liam is highly unbias and y'all should remember that.
- King was a brilliant writer, but a bitch.
-The music thread turned to spam- but no matter what board i've ever been to- and others can agree- they exist, and they rarely are bitched about. But you know... Leon...
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Post by Aryck Venn on Jun 3, 2008 6:20:16 GMT 1
P.S, I don't want fans. Fact of the matter is: -Odin is and will always 'push it to the limit' -Leon is the good cop. Most of the time TOO good a cop. Reminds me of a mob underboss, or, in terms he'd understand- a Sith Apprentice. -Liam is highly unbias and y'all should remember that. - King was a brilliant writer, but a bitch. -The music thread turned to spam- but no matter what board i've ever been to- and others can agree- they exist, and they rarely are bitched about. But you know... Leon...Oh, that Shamino. Always gonna be that same old lovable asshole. In the end, it amounts to nothing but this: Life is nothing but a popularity contest. Whether we admit it or not, whether it's intentional or completely subconscious, people are going to let things slide for people that they like. Shamino, despite his claim of 'not wanting fans', still has a lot for being a) a long-term veteran of the site, b) a damn good RP fighter, and c) constant sort of amusement. Because of this, if and when he makes some asshole comment towards another, guess what: Someone's probably gonna find it funny, and probably just because "Oh, that's just Shamino." Now, since we've already named names here, if someone like Ari comes along, without the same 'fanbase' for lack of a better word, as Shamino has, he sees Shammo and others letting out snarky one-liners, and he thinks "Hey, if they can, why can't I?" He's got no reason to think otherwise, does he? However, he tries, he gets slammed and publicly lambasted for being a dick, and he's left with two options, from where I'm standing. He could either whine about it and point fingers saying "Well Shamino does it!!", or, he could simply shrug it off, think "Alright, that didn't work," and maybe try again after he's spent some time on the board and garnered a level of respect comparable to Shamino's in some way.* And when you think about it, every other thing Nate brought up kinda works the same way. If it looks like favoritism, it's really just because it is. I mean, it's why certain people can fight like they want, and no one will say anything, and then the SAME PEOPLE will make an alternate character without the knowledge of most, and those people bash the 'new guy' for god-modding. If the 'new guy' really were a new guy, all he'd have to do is get into a position where people, essentially, trust his judgment to do what's right, then he could do whatever he wanted (within reason.) As far as the three characters thing goes... I honestly feel it's just time we completely retracted that rule anyway. I mean, right off the top of my head, I can name at least one regular member, VIP member, Moderator member, AND Co-Admin member that has done so. Hell, technically I've done so, even though I've made it clear that Aryck was meant to be my replacement for Darren post-graduation. Either way, the point is this: Let's just try to adhere as best we can to the 500 post limit, maybe, say, for every new character, you have to have at least 500 posts with all your current characters? I don't know, but it's a start. Cuz I mean, if we're gonna make exceptions for people on every single walk of XinRPB1-life, we might as well just rescind the rule entirely. I mean, James was absolutely right to bring all this up, I think it's something that should be addressed. However, I think that, in reality, it's more or less a self-solving problem. Even more so now that it has been brought to the light of day, so thanks for that, James. tl;dr version: Que sera, sera.
Alternate tl;dr: If you don't like something... do something about it.*The situations I put forth earlier in the post where, in no way, representations of anything that actually happened, or how I feel about Ari. I just decided to use the names that were given to make up an appropriate situation semi-based on things that did happen. Kinda like one of those 'based on true events' movies. |
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Post by Leon Loire on Jun 3, 2008 6:34:41 GMT 1
Thanks Ryan, I think that had to be said. Even though I'm sure the situation - as a problem that will solve itself, as you said - is a series of variables, a wise man would not rule out the possibility of favoritism in any social situation.
And to add, since my name is being mentioned in whatever light is intended, I will point out that if the good cop is the one that is supposed to follow the rules and listen to the orders of the admin, then this board has plenty of "good cops" from what I see, and I hardly see how enforcing those rules makes me "too much of a good cop." But that's up to the interpretations of certain people.
It doesn't matter, anyway; that term's been used to describe me for two and a half years now, and I've always seen it as a compliment. I still do, even though it can be turned around as much as any other title.
I must admit that I find a bit of irony in the claim that I'm too much of a good cop, though, considering a recent VIP thread... but no matter, there's no more that needs to be said. I'll just keep grinning at the situation and keep to my duties. That is what's expected of me, after all.
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Post by Aryck Venn on Jun 3, 2008 6:48:06 GMT 1
Shut up, good cop.
(See? See what I did there? It's funny because it's John.)
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