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Post by Maverik on Aug 14, 2007 19:19:15 GMT 1
So here's a concept that sparked one hell of a debate between myself and two of my friends at about 3 in the morning. Immortality Through Science...
So here's the story. You're going to die. Either from age, disease, or mortal wound. Scientists have created a body that is identical to yours in every way, except that it is not dying (and is perhaps younger). They tell you that they are going to transplant all your thoughts, memories and experiences, essentially moving the entire contents of your brain into this new body. Now, this isn't an ethical question. This is a question of belief. Do you think that the person who wakes up in that new body, is you?
Not to the casual observer... Not to your best and closest friends/relatives... Not even to the person who woke up... Is it still YOU? Or has someone else who is so perfectly identical to you that no one could ever tell woken up in your stead?
Assuming that Science has advanced as far as you want it to. Would they ever have the power to make that person who wakes up be you? Or would they be your exact double while you die, brain dead?
Also, if it is merely someone else, who is you in every way, would you want them to make your existence live on while you die?
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Kyousuke
Dreamer
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Tell me when, and why, you give or take Karma from me. Otherwise it is meaningless.
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Post by Kyousuke on Aug 14, 2007 19:31:24 GMT 1
It would depend on the level of technology, but I find it would be easiest to answer in this fashion. Are you still awake and aware, and die, while the other gets up and walks off? If that was the case, it's not me. It's a clone. same memories and feelings, maybe even identically actions. But it's not me. And if that was the case I'd not do it, and I'd make a point to kill the fake me before I died. <_<
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Post by charlotte on Aug 14, 2007 19:36:20 GMT 1
Well assuming that this clone body has a dead mind, then yes, it would be you. Either by wiping the mind of the clone or by having your consciousness overwrite it in the download. After all, human brains are just really really really complex biological computers. It would be just like taking your entire C drive and putting it in a newly built tower. A new body: faster and better, but with all the information and files you used to have.
However, there might be fragments of the clone's mind left in you; it would probably seem like a slight feeling at the back of your mind every now and then. Aside from any of those residual thoughts, the body would, for all intents and purposes, be you.
Even if this new you had some strange feelings left over from the clone body, even if some individual personality came uncovered for short periods of time, it would still be you. It would be just like you were growing and changing and developing all over again as a person.
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Post by Maverik on Aug 14, 2007 19:38:47 GMT 1
It would depend on the level of technology, but I find it would be easiest to answer in this fashion. Are you still awake and aware, and die, while the other gets up and walks off? If that was the case, it's not me. It's a clone. same memories and feelings, maybe even identically actions. But it's not me. And if that was the case I'd not do it, and I'd make a point to kill the fake me before I died. <_< No. They somehow suck everything out of your brain and put it into the new body. You're not just cloned. They've tried to put you in a new body without giving you the same brain. Also, the other thing wasn't a question of you both being alive, and is that ok. The question was, would you be happy with the idea of the other you living, assuming that when they sucked everything out, you really did just become a brain dead vegetable who is killed. But to everyone else, you were successfully transplanted.
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Kyousuke
Dreamer
Senior
Tell me when, and why, you give or take Karma from me. Otherwise it is meaningless.
Posts: 271
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Post by Kyousuke on Aug 14, 2007 19:40:39 GMT 1
Ah, I see. That does make it all the more confusion. In all honesty I'm not sure. It would take long hours of thought, so I'm just going to skip to the next part.
No. If I'm dieing, for whatever reason, just cut the cord. I don't know about the rest of you, but fuck, once is enough.
Excuse my French.
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Post by Nathan Branigan on Aug 14, 2007 19:45:32 GMT 1
I'd say that if my brain was transfered into the new body then it is me inside of it. I have become a part of the new form. In doing so, I would have become immortal. However, if the other body's memories are just copied from mine and are not the original brain then it is not me. It is an imitation meant to be me, but all it really is is a fake used to fool others. Just because it shares your memories, looks, thoughts, and such does not make it you. Your brain is what defines you as the original. So you would die with your body. Unless of course your brain is transferred as I stated before.
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Post by charlotte on Aug 14, 2007 19:47:40 GMT 1
Well if they sucked out my brain, made the old me a brain dead vegetable, and implanted me in a new, viable body, then I think I would live with that. Either way one body is destroyed but the stuff that makes you you lives on. In a way it's just like being born again, and we don't get the choice to be born or not. I think it would be hard for a while, getting used to what happened, but in the end I'd live with it.
If I had the choice though? I would never do that. If you do it once you might be tempted to do it again: staring death in the face and cheating your way out. One time turns into two, two into three, and so on and so forth. Not only will you outlive everyone you ever knew and thier descendants, but you mind would slowly degrade: like making a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy, except your mind is being moved from copied body to body.
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Post by Leon Loire on Aug 14, 2007 20:00:14 GMT 1
By all Scientific purposes, be it that you're capable of completely mirroring the original body's design, right down to the atoms in a cell, and then copy the experiences and memories of your former self onto this new body's brain, then by all Scientific theory, that would leave the body to either "become" you, or really be "you." In that purely Scientific sense, then yes, you'd likely still be yourself, simply in a new body.
But this isn't a question of just Science, now is it? And besides which, I've come to see that Science really can't explain everything, and likely will not be able to even in the distant future. That's not saying that Religion will, but I simply feel that there are some tremendously powerful things in this Universe that the Laws of Science and its observers cannot comprehend without some sort of additional tool given to this Human Race. But enough of that, let's get down to why I disagree on the "new body" being "precisely you."
From what I can imagine, nearly all things about a Human being can be scientifically explained: their physical bodily form, the basic and intermediate levels of the human brain, the designs of the nervous system, and some day, we'll likely be able to easily read out our genetic pattern, our memory nerves, and how our conscious could be "scientifically" predicted. But I feel that, no matter how advanced this species and its knowledge of Science reaches, we will never be able to completely understand the human conscious. Thoughts are not chemical reactions or biological reactions, they're choices by that human on how to deal with a situation.
Therefore, if you copy a person's "mind" into the body of another form that is, in all scientific purposes, the exact mirror of your former self, then I personally feel that this new version of "you" would truly not be the same person, because no matter if they have all of your experiences, all your memories, and all your variables in check, there is no guarantee that the conscious that results from them will be the same as your original. Their conscious could, and likely will, take a different perspective on those experiences you had, and will make different choices, uphold different ideals, and feel differently about the world than you ever would. Therefore, the person would be a different person, merely a twin, or a clone.
Look at it this way: identical twins are born in a virtually equal way - they have the same genes as the other, have the same general brain pattern as the other, and tend to start out life with the same variables and emotions as the other. Yet, either through varying experiences or life styles, they grow differently. But why did they grow differently? On a scientific level, they should have both been the mirror of the other in every way; yet, they became different individuals because they made different choices. Their conscious minds were different.
Another example is the Many Worlds Theory. If our Universe had Adolf Hitler lose WWII, yet another Universe had Hitler win WWII, then we would all say that they are now different universes, because they both follow different paths, whether radical or subtle. The same way goes for a Human being.
So at last, I disagree; that "person" that mirrors you would not be "you," and in all honesty, I'm not sure I'd like having someone like that pervading the world in my stead, making actions and choices in my name. That is my choice, and if I can't control them, then they are not me.
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Kyousuke
Dreamer
Senior
Tell me when, and why, you give or take Karma from me. Otherwise it is meaningless.
Posts: 271
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Post by Kyousuke on Aug 14, 2007 20:09:45 GMT 1
"You take forever to say nothing." - Homer Simpson
::cough:: Anyways. Leon, I'd be more inclined to agree with you. If I wasn't feeling like someone poured a gallon of acid down my throat I would have brought up the fact that science will never have every answer we seek, and watch as the inevitable Science v Religion debate start up.
Charlotte I'm also in agreement with you. If somehow (which I don't believe will ever happen) it does become possible, as said, I'd rather just die. Life isn't worth living more than once. We're not built in body or mind to live forever, why change that. Besides, it never seems to work out too well for vampires.
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Post by Pain Killer on Aug 14, 2007 20:11:41 GMT 1
Besides, it never seems to work out too well for vampires. Says you.
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Kyousuke
Dreamer
Senior
Tell me when, and why, you give or take Karma from me. Otherwise it is meaningless.
Posts: 271
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Post by Kyousuke on Aug 14, 2007 20:12:50 GMT 1
Don't make me bring up a vampire debate...
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Post by Shamino Warhen Ph.D on Aug 14, 2007 20:12:52 GMT 1
I've watched Ghost In The Shell. Hell yeah its you.
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Post by Maverik on Aug 14, 2007 20:14:20 GMT 1
I personally agree with Leon here. No matter how perfect the movement, no matter how well science can take the contents of my brain and put it in a new body, I don't think that science will ever harness the power to take my mind and put it into the new shell. They may remove everything that makes me who I am, and put it into the new body. But I will still exist in this one. I will never again awaken. A new me, who will never know the fate of it's old self will be born, and will live on believing that the process worked.
One of my friends said that they would want their existence to continue, and to keep affecting the world as he has been his entire life. But I don't think it's something I'd ever want. If I am to die, then so be it. I have no wish to extend the existence of who I am beyond that of my own physical being.
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Post by Odin Reeves on Aug 14, 2007 20:15:24 GMT 1
If it were actually a transplantation of the brain, then yeah, it would be you inside a newly crafted body.
However, if it's just thoughts combined with physical characteristics, then it's not you. There mind won't develope, it won't change with the trends of the world, or go by whats current. It wouldn't be able to have a proper discussion, and the only reason it would be there is to help the grieving family, which would probably make things worse.
Over all, It's a bad idea IMO.
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Post by Leon Loire on Aug 14, 2007 20:31:02 GMT 1
I've watched Ghost In The Shell. Hell yeah its you. Ghost in the Shell involves transplanting a person's brain into another body; this involves creating a "mirror" of you. Therefore, it's not the same thing. And get used to it Kyosuke, if you hadn't noticed, I'm rather infamous for my long rants... but trust me, I covered more than you'd think.
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Post by Nathan Branigan on Aug 14, 2007 20:37:25 GMT 1
By all Scientific purposes, be it that you're capable of completely mirroring the original body's design, right down to the atoms in a cell, and then copy the experiences and memories of your former self onto this new body's brain, then by all Scientific theory, that would leave the body to either "become" you, or really be "you." In that purely Scientific sense, then yes, you'd likely still be yourself, simply in a new body. But this isn't a question of just Science, now is it? And besides which, I've come to see that Science really can't explain everything, and likely will not be able to even in the distant future. That's not saying that Religion will, but I simply feel that there are some tremendously powerful things in this Universe that the Laws of Science and its observers cannot comprehend without some sort of additional tool given to this Human Race. But enough of that, let's get down to why I disagree on the "new body" being "precisely you." From what I can imagine, nearly all things about a Human being can be scientifically explained: their physical bodily form, the basic and intermediate levels of the human brain, the designs of the nervous system, and some day, we'll likely be able to easily read out our genetic pattern, our memory nerves, and how our conscious could be "scientifically" predicted. But I feel that, no matter how advanced this species and its knowledge of Science reaches, we will never be able to completely understand the human conscious. Thoughts are not chemical reactions or biological reactions, they're choices by that human on how to deal with a situation. Therefore, if you copy a person's "mind" into the body of another form that is, in all scientific purposes, the exact mirror of your former self, then I personally feel that this new version of "you" would truly not be the same person, because no matter if they have all of your experiences, all your memories, and all your variables in check, there is no guarantee that the conscious that results from them will be the same as your original. Their conscious could, and likely will, take a different perspective on those experiences you had, and will make different choices, uphold different ideals, and feel differently about the world than you ever would. Therefore, the person would be a different person, merely a twin, or a clone. Look at it this way: identical twins are born in a virtually equal way - they have the same genes as the other, have the same general brain pattern as the other, and tend to start out life with the same variables and emotions as the other. Yet, either through varying experiences or life styles, they grow differently. But why did they grow differently? On a scientific level, they should have both been the mirror of the other in every way; yet, they became different individuals because they made different choices. Their conscious minds were different. Another example is the Many Worlds Theory. If our Universe had Adolf Hitler lose WWII, yet another Universe had Hitler win WWII, then we would all say that they are now different universes, because they both follow different paths, whether radical or subtle. The same way goes for a Human being. So at last, I disagree; that "person" that mirrors you would not be "you," and in all honesty, I'm not sure I'd like having someone like that pervading the world in my stead, making actions and choices in my name. That is my choice, and if I can't control them, then they are not me. I'm going to have to disagree with your approach. First off, I feel that I have to stress this on you. EVERYTHING that happens in your body is caused by a chemical/biological reaction, or a transfer of energy. This is a fact of science. It is true not only for the human body, but the entire Universe. However, the knowledge that these thoughts of ours are caused by how our body's chemicals force us to react to our situation makes them no less genuine. Also I must bring to light your view on the whole transfer idea. Let me first state that because all your thoughts, memories, and actions are kept and controlled in your brain; it is where you soul is contained. This may be slightly odd for people like Auroth, who is an atheist, but let's just call it that. Therefore, if your brain is transferred, it is you. However, if it is merely placed into a supercomputer inside of the new bodies brain, like Ghost In The Shell, then it is not you. Shamino, just because you saw it in an anime doesn't make it correct. John, you pretty much hit that fact head on. Lastly, I would have to bring to mind something John. The whole argument about the copy making different decisions is useless. Have you not done something and then looked back on it, regretting it? Have you ever disagreed with your past self on something you did? This is the progression of you mind. Your new experiences would change your beliefs sometimes. Your copy would have those just as you would have and would develop as well. However, at the beginning of their creation, they would be just as you were, before you died, in your beliefs. That's my disagreements with you. But I could be wrong.
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Post by Shamino Warhen Ph.D on Aug 14, 2007 20:44:29 GMT 1
Thoughts, memories, personality characteristics. This is what makes a person. The body is an object- a very important one, but an object nonetheless. Its a tool- and tools can be changed, added, taken away from, and yes- duplicated. A body is a body- but if science could transfer the mind- then it can transfer you.
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Post by charlotte on Aug 14, 2007 21:08:59 GMT 1
I'm going to have to disagree with your approach. First off, I feel that I have to stress this on you. EVERYTHING that happens in your body is caused by a chemical/biological reaction, or a transfer of energy. This is a fact of science. Also I must bring to light your view on the whole transfer idea. Let me first state that because all your thoughts, memories, and actions are kept and controlled in your brain; it is where you soul is contained. In what portion of the cellular structure is the soul formed? What chemical reactions cause the soul to function? What is the measurement of a regular soul? You can't prove a soul is chemicaly created, and of course someone will say that it also cannot be disproved. I still have to disagree with you: not everything is meant to be explained - least of all, your 'soul'. Science, in that case, is just a speculative scapegoat for the easy explaination so you won't have to consider the possibilities you don't want to have to consider. The body is not the sole thing that makes you, you. Just like Shamino said: a tool or a shell, much like computer hardware. You can transplant the software and information to an identical set of hardware, and when you turn it on, it'll have all the same processes and files. You are still you. Change of perspectives does not change who you are: it's called growing. Yes, you might feel differently and develop different thoughts, but you're still you.
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Post by Nathan Branigan on Aug 14, 2007 21:40:48 GMT 1
I'm not disagreeing with that. I was merely saying that people change with time and that does not make you someone else.
And just so we are clear, I call it the 'soul' because I have no other word for it. The 'soul' is the collection of different parts of your brain that hold hopes dreams, thoughts, beliefs, choices, emotions, etc. So basically, your brain is your soul.
And on a side note, your body is a tool. Shamino got this quite right. The whole thing with the computer software is accurate, but I don't see how this conflicts with what I said. I said that if your brain('soul') is transferred then it is you. Just like the software in your analogy. However, just copying those things from the brain and placing them in a separate object is different. Just like how a clone is not you. It is a clone. It is an imitation.
What I was saying to Leon was that the imitation would be just like the original at first, but it would eventually develop after it has its own experiences just as a person would. However, I agreed with him that it is not the person. I disagreed with him on if the imitation would be just like the original, not that it was or wasn't the original.
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Post by Tiao Lei Shen on Aug 14, 2007 22:33:32 GMT 1
I'm with Shammy on this one. He pretty much said what my thoughts were.
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