The Possible Return of Adolf Hitler (Discussion)

[Leon Loire]

Odin's Buried Alive? thread made me think that it was time for the OOC to go back to some good ol' discussion threads. In a sense, it's been a while since we've really had one of those theory/debate/opinion threads, and I think this old question from my first months on the board will work.

Back at the very start of my junior year in high school, I was in Psychology class with our school's "hippie" teacher, Mr. Blanchard, and we started to discuss the various branches of Psychology that have different variations of how to view the mind of a human being. For example, some Psychologists believe in Behaviorism, where a human being, their personality, their character, and their conscious choices are not directly influenced from genetics or other variables, but rather by the actions of their parents, their environment, et cetera. Of course, in contrast is Biological Psychology that believes a human being is influenced by your nervous system's various chemical reactions and so forth. There are six main branches of Psychology if I remember correctly, but I can't recall them all: it's been two years since I took the class, and the Sociology class that I just took doesn't cover Psychological schools.

Anyway, I made note of that so you could get that in your thoughts as you ponder the following question. Everyone reading this subject obviously clicked because of the title; after all, it's about the leader of the German Nazi Party, history is sickly obsessed with the bastard. Now, history tells us that Adolf Hitler experienced a troubled childhood that seems to fit the Oedipus Complex rather well, had an insatiable interest in various forms of rage and power, and struggled to find his purpose in life until he was ordered by German military officials to spy on the former form of the National Socialist Party. He watched them, joined them, became one of their leaders - then they're one and only leader - and then revamped the party to what it is now known for. From then on, he was the man we all have been told he was: Adolf Hitler, the leader of Nazi Germany during the Second World War. And we all know that, according to speculation and reports, that he died in a Berlin bunker just a few days before the Soviet Red Army invaded the city. His body was burned, with little trace of his remains.

Now, I ask you this: if Adolf Hitler's bodily remains somehow did survive, and a Scientist in some corner of the world decided with a flair of "genius" to extract the DNA and place it inside of a female sex cell, allowing the egg to evolve into an embryo inside of the woman's womb and eventually be born, do you think this child, who is genetically identical to the infamous Adolf Hitler, is doomed to become the man reborn? Or do you think that, regardless of the fact that his genetics are the same, that he appears the same, that this boy's mind will tick differently than the leader of the Nazi Party?

What's your take on this? Would Hitler rise again, or would he just be another teenager who's gifted at art and speech?

[Director Troutman]

Genetic predisposition can only account for so much, when compared to mental/psychological conditioning as a child.

The point you need to ask, is whether this childs mother would be identical to Hitlers, would he be raised in a similar way, things to that effect.

However, as you lay it out, with the cultural changes the world's undergone in the last fifty-plus years, I would be willing to say Hitler Jr. would be little more than an average kid.

[Pain Killer]

Until someone finds out he's l'il Hitler. Then, I'd imagine, that kid is going through Hell from the other kids, and even from those who are older.

[Kit Lee]

I think simply put, it would be, are identical twins the same? Answer is no. Though they have same genetic coding yet think differently. Another example thats even closer: Conjoined identical twins. They even share the same body yet still think differently. It all depends on the environment, the input recieved, the interractions, chance as well, and genetics is just one role of these many factors. Memories are what you are and gone you'll never be you again.

[Alkaiser]

This is just another branch of the Nature versus Nurture debate, dude. You should remember that from your psych class.

(Warning: Psychology Rant Ahead. I dig it.)

Quite simply put, this timeless psychological debate simply argues which part of our being holds the most weight on our personality, your genetic makeup(Nature) or your upbringing and experiences throughout your lifetime(Nurture). Throughout all of psychology it is usually concluded to be a wash, with both sides making significant contributions in the long run. This should be no different, and I would conclude that while he does have a direct genetic link to Hitler, without the traumatic childhood experiences that plagued the fuhrer, another Adolf would not be possible. Also, any genetic predisposition would only be equal to half of Hitler's, with the rest coming from the surrogate that birthed the child.

(wasn't as bad as it could've been ^.^)

Plus I'd like to think that we live in a world where a second holocost would be pretty hard to pull off. That's just me. (Leon, resist the obvious joke about the Iraq war. It's too easy.)

[Leon Loire]

alkaiser said:

This is just another branch of the Nature versus Nurture debate, dude. You should remember that from your psych class.

(Warning: Psychology Rant Ahead. I dig it.)

Quite simply put, this timeless psychological debate simply argues which part of our being holds the most weight on our personality, your genetic makeup(Nature) or your upbringing and experiences throughout your lifetime(Nurture). Throughout all of psychology it is usually concluded to be a wash, with both sides making significant contributions in the long run. This should be no different, and I would conclude that while he does have a direct genetic link to Hitler, without the traumatic childhood experiences that plagued the fuhrer, another Adolf would not be possible. Also, any genetic predisposition would only be equal to half of Hitler's, with the rest coming from the surrogate that birthed the child.

(wasn't as bad as it could've been ^.^)

Plus I'd like to think that we live in a world where a second holocost would be pretty hard to pull off. That's just me. (Leon, resist the obvious joke about the Iraq war. It's too easy.)

No, I was thinking of the possible rise of the Third World War, but no need to go into that.

[Alkaiser]

No! That's a bad liberal. Bad. Go to your poor-house...no commi-treats for you.

^.^ Now that that's outta my system...

(I'd like to apologize...that first part sounded a little more serious than I wanted it to be...I was just joking... )

Honestly though, Should the Hitler-spawn somehow manage a rise to power, I actually would expect some conflict, quite possibly the third world war, out of it. Good point.

[charlotte]

leonhart said:

No, I was thinking of the possible rise of the Third World War, but no need to go into that.

Haven't you heard? We've already on the road to World War Three! It's practically upon us now!

[Leon Loire]

charlotte said:

leonhart said:

No, I was thinking of the possible rise of the Third World War, but no need to go into that.

Haven't you heard? We've already on the road to World War Three! It's practically upon us now!

Let's not be jumping to conclusions just yet there Sarah, there's still chance to turn away from the inevitable path, we just need to be very, VERY careful...

And the way the '08 elections are going is scaring the living shit out of me, and it's not helping with how Putin's changing Russia. But oh well, this is about Hitler, not the Middle East, Please, somebody be brave and try to bring up the Behaviorist argument here. I don't want everyone agreeing on this when the last Hitler-clone argument was pretty well split.

[Kyousuke]

Simple answer: No, it's not going to be another Hitler.

Reasoning: For starters, not even Germany is stupid enough to let another Hitler rise to power. He'd become a terrorist, if anything. Which I also don't see happening. Now would this be different if Hitler was alive and well and raising Hitler Jr. The chances of him being just like, or close too, his father would rise significantly if he was raised by him.

Although we all know that there are certain groups which would love him. But this would just put him under the, quite silly, notion of being a neo-natzi or being the leader of the Arian Brotherhood. In jail. To continue this reasoning you have to remember how Hitler was growing up, when he was growing up, and who raised him. They would have to match his youth nearly perfectly to produce someone close enough to Hitler to satisfy them.

And even if they purposefully mimicked every aspect of Hitlers life then he could, and would, still turn out different. Because he's a different person. Identical DNA or not he has his own mind. So this leaves me with a different thought. That the only way that a Hitler Jr. would turn out exactly the same, or as close to it as possible, would be brain washing and reprogramming. Which also would be really unlikely. But considering the technology level to bring him to life is that high, probably possible.

PS: If this feels like rambling or organized poorly, that's because it is.

[victor]

It's not just a matter of Hitler's traits, but also his entire family's traits. For example suppose most (or at least many) of the males in Hitler's family were obsessed with power and all the things Hitler was known for. Then there would be definite signs that genetics would play a part in it because the males would have passed down something genetic such as megalomania.

Then again suppose Hitler was the first one of his family to take things to the length he did. Then it would lie either in mental illness within Hitler alone or Hitler's upbringing or both.

Simply put, I don't think placing Hitler's (fictional) DNA within a woman would cause her child to grow up to become the next Hitler. I mean Hitler's extremities came from his personal beliefs, not his mindset or genetics. And even if it was genetic, the child would inherit other traits from the mother and father that would probably overpower or at least tone down the traits Hitler had.

[Kazuki Akimoto]

I love how everyone's simply agreeing with me, despite trying to word it differently or explore a separate aspect of the same point.

[Pain Killer]

Lies. I didn't agree with you.

Take that!

[Leon Loire]

Yeah, it seems pretty much pointless to try and expect those who believe in the Biological side to speak up now, with so many Behaviorists apparently out there....

Understand Victor, that Hitler did not become the man he is known for simply because of his personal beliefs. He gained those ideals somehow, whether through a combination of environmental events, or from the genetic design of his conscious, or elsewhere. He came under the ideals he had because of his "natural" personality, combined with his troubled childhood, the unfortunate events that happened in his lifetime before joining the Nazi Party, and his own ears picking up the common scapegoats of the day.

I will say that it is possible that Adolf Hitler could return in a particular form if he was cloned and returned to life. While I typically believe in a person's conscious thought being crafted from their own choices, these choices cannot come without a foundation. In my view, the most basic foundation is one's genetic design - whether you are patient or impatient, logical or artistic, so on and so forth - followed by your development over the course of your childhood; this development includes how your parents raise you, what sort of financial status they contain, what experiences you witness, and how that genetic foundation reacts to your new environmental foundation. Eventually, by age ten, I feel that most human beings are capable of their own coherent choices, now built from a solid structure of genetics adapting to mental experiences.

Hitler was likely a left brained individual, and also relied too much on instant choices and solutions. He relied on his instincts and emotions too much, and because he was loved dearly by his mother, but turned away from his father, logic may have left him as well. Yet he had a natural knack for commanding others, but only to the point of the most basic of things, such as elementary bullies or so forth. His father died on him when he was still a child, so he did not have a proper father figure to teach him how to be a man, and his mother paid too much attention to him, not allowing him to pull away and become independent, until his mother finally died, bringing out intense rage that had already been there, yet never properly vented. Because of his mother, Hitler also seemed to become an asexual in mind, yet still had his sexual desire for women, confusing him tremendously. His time as an artist disappointed him as he failed to get into Art school, the dream he had all his life, and his military life during WWI was pathetic, and quickly made him vulnerable to anger and blame towards the Jewish community, which had always been a scapegoat of European society, making it easier to place anger on them.

In my opinion, if Hitler were cloned and born today, you need to consider that his genetic foundation will be exactly the same (cloning through a female egg does not use RNA, but rather, extracts the female RNA and inserts the clone DNA, therefore skipping the process of melding the sperm RNA and egg RNA) and that placing him in a particular environment could bring about similar results. For example, if he grew up in the United States, specifically in a Middle-Class family, with two loving parents that can give him a good education, good friends (assuming no one can recognize a child-Hitler) and a good lifestyle, then more than likely, Hitler's anger issues could be dealt with in childhood from counseling, his artistic viewpoint could be reinforced, and his issues with being a bully could be countered, leading him to become an intelligent, artistic, charismatic leader. However, place Hitler in Eastern Europe, with two struggling parents, a bad lifestyle, and a world of strife, he'd likely rise up to lead some sort of movement - yet even then, it could potentially be a Civil Rights Movement, or a revolution, it need not be specially against a social group.

In any case, I feel that Hitler's chances of returning to what he formerly was is highly improbable; however, there is still just as likely a chance that he could become something else, something great, or something dangerous. It all depends on how it plays out on his environmental world. And even then, this probability must be small, because that would mean that anyone with any sort of genetic flaw, if placed in the wrong environment, could become as deadly or dangerous as the infamous Adolf Hitler. Hence why it is common for us to see people like Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, Hussein, Bin Laden, and many of the other terrible world leaders rise to power over time.

In any case, it all depends on how that other side plays out, and what kind of world that other side is placed in.

[Kit Lee]

kazuki said:

I love how everyone's simply agreeing with me, despite trying to word it differently or explore a separate aspect of the same point.

I just realized that you wrote something and that mine was pretty much same as yours lol.

Edit: Oh another example after skimming Leon's post. Think Maplestory, RO, or some other bastard game where you have a set base stats. That is DNA. If your base stats suck, too bad you can't change them. Then, how your character turns out, whether or not you use those base stats to your benefit or to that field (IE: Wizard, Thief, etc) is up to you and your circumstances and chance (Maybe by chance a friend will level you up only if you become a specific character type)

[August Velway]

prottain said:

kazuki said:

I love how everyone's simply agreeing with me, despite trying to word it differently or explore a separate aspect of the same point.

I just realized that you wrote something and that mine was pretty much same as yours lol.

Edit: Oh another example after skimming Leon's post. Think Maplestory, RO, or some other bastard game where you have a set base stats. That is DNA. If your base stats suck, too bad you can't change them. Then, how your character turns out, whether or not you use those base stats to your benefit or to that field (IE: Wizard, Thief, etc) is up to you and your circumstances and chance (Maybe by chance a friend will level you up only if you become a specific character type)

Um... so to help anyone who doesn't understand Pyschology, you replace it with an analogy about RPGs that use Stats? I'm sure someone's going to blink at that and sigh deeply.

But still, while some won't get it, I see what you mean, and I have to say that it works well enough.

[kai]

I actually think he'd return no matter what. Genetics determine literally everything one does, thinks, feels, everything to their life is predetermined by their genetics. If there was a son of Hitler, he'd have a fifty fifty shot of being exactly like Hitler or only being half of what Hitler was (due to the woman's genetics).

[charlotte]

If that's the case, then why is it that siblings are different from each other, if they can only ever be made from one half of one parent, and one half of an another? That logic dictates that there can only be one product of any given union, and I'm sorry, but genetics don't really work like that. Children take on genetic traits of thier parents - its how life is possible, after all - and to some extent, act like them or share certain traits in common, but when it comes to how thier genes come out of the mix, it's never an even fifty-fifty split, especially concerning thier beliefs and disposition.

You're not born with your beliefs predetermined. That comes with knowledge and your environment. I, for one, didn't believe much of what I believe today sixteen years ago. In fact, since I would have been just born at that time, my beliefs then would seem as alien to me now as my beliefs now would seem to me then.

[Jason Cross]

Hate to be an extra agree to the original point, yet I do agree. I think even with the same DNA, the same upbringing etc there is still chances for a different outcome. One example being two men who both stated the same reason for their lifestyles in later age. One a judge said with parents like mine how else would I turn out, his twin brother said the same thing but was a criminal and a bum. Same DNA same parents, different outcome. I also think that a lot of the stuff Hitler did was a choice, he chose to become the person he did. For all we know in the same situation a 2nd time, Hitler himself may have chosen differently. So I don't see the same thing happening again. Every life is an extreme statistical impossibility in my practical thought, to have any 2 people who follow the same exact path seems illogical to me. Now, as for the example of us seeing common people like those you said, I think you are more so pointing out people with similiar belief's than with a true similiar genetic code.

[victor]

Leon: I know that. I think you sort of misunderstood what I said.

Back on subject, I'm a firm believer in environment and upbringing rather then nature. I mean, look at the stuff Hitler did. The guy clearly had something loose in his head. Nobody completely sane could bring about the slaughter of countless innocents in such a way.

Which also brings up the subject of another monster, Dr. Josef Mengele, AKA the angel of death. I mean, Dr. Mengele was in my opinion, one of the most monstrous men to exist, in some ways even surpassing Hitler in cruelty (he oversaw and created most of the "experiments" in the death camps). Him I wonder about what could have brought him to be able to live with himself.

Then again, I can't seem to find much information on his family, so we may not know. If Mengele was able to just say "this is my job" about the atrocities he committed without any prior problems in his life, then he must have been malignantly narcissistic or something.